My source for Walnut Oil

[kiwigeo]

Ive been using walnut oil for my french polishing for some time now and like the stuff. a 250ml bottle is $25 plus $1 postage. Heres where I get it:

http://www.wellwood.com.au/home.cfm

[Mike Thomas]

Martin, I find your preference for walnut oil very interesting.I have often wondered why olive oil is so commonly, and successfully, used in French polishing, rather than walnut oil. Olive oil is, I believe, not a siccative (i.e. drying) oil, whereas walnut oil is, as long as there are no additives to extend shelf life. I speak with absolutely no experience of French polishing, but I imagine that it would be preferable for any traces of oil left in the finish to dry, rather than remain tacky.

Your source for walnut oil looks like a good one.

[kiwigeo]

Hi Mike,

According to Milburn, drying oils such as walnut oil used to be preferred for french polishing as they combine with the shellac and also act as a hardening agent when dry. In recent times alot of walnut oil manufacturers have added vitamin E and/or antioxidants and perfumes to their product making it less desirable for FP.

Rob is our resident FP expert and will no doubt have some input on this.

[auscab]

Hi Mike,

According to Milburn, drying oils such as walnut oil used to be preferred for french polishing as they combine with the shellac and also act as a hardening agent when dry. .

Who Knows ,Milburn may be right , but to me I think of oil and shellac like I do chalk and cheese.

I just use Linseed oil ,boiled or raw, I’ve read that other oils are good but have never had a need to try any thing else .

I know you know this Martin, but while were on oils.
We were taught never to use oil during the bodying up or grain filling part of the job,
it is actually not needed and is a risky luxury while learning to French polish.

The last thing I need is any oil ,one that dries or does not dry to become trapped within the layers of shellac, or become part of the polish job , and have seen plenty of crazed polish jobs [ months later] and oil in the grain [it goes white months later if there is a lot of it] because the oil was not taken off properly between bodying up sessions .
Not by Me either , we had one guy working with us that was great at it ,he was such a nice guy and good in so many other ways that it was put up with. Some jobs would come back and have to be repaired,he was with us for about thirty five years.

Mike ,
"but I imagine that it would be preferable for any traces of oil left in the finish to dry, rather than remain tacky."

I think the faster an oil dry's the more the chance of trapping the oil between coats, that is if the polisher does not take it all off properly at the end of a session. I think this is one of the main ways it gets trapped.
Ive seen it with linseed oil any way, and it was probably boiled linseed oil.

[Clancy]

I've been using Paraffin Oil as advised by Neil Ellis in "The Polisher's Handbook".
I got it from a vet supply shop.
Neil says that it does't get trapped in the shellac...?

[kiwigeo]

I know you know this Martin, but while were on oils.
We were taught never to use oil during the bodying up or grain filling part of the job,
it is actually not needed and is a risky luxury while learning to French polish.

Hi Rob,

The oil versus no oil argument has always intrigued me. I certainly would never use oil during pore filling but for bodying sessions Ive tried polishing with no oil but its never worked for me. The major problem for me is lint pulling off the pad.....with a bit of oil this doesn't happen.

Cheers Martin

[auscab]

I body up with and without oil, I suppose it just comes down to just what I have in front of me at the time, and how fast I can get it done,
The Mahogany table you saw pictures of is an extreme body job and I didn’t want to spend extra time getting oil off at the end of each body session, the lint and fine swirl’s that get in the job as the grain is being filled with shellac all disappear when the job gets an oil and turps cut back with 280 before the next body , the lint was only a problem when I was finishing off with oil, getting the final shine, the longer I spend doing that finishing the more I get lint or dust .

[kiwigeo]

I body up with and without oil, I suppose it just comes down to just what I have in front of me at the time, and how fast I can get it done,
The Mahogany table you saw pictures of is an extreme body job and I didn’t want to spend extra time getting oil off at the end of each body session, the lint and fine swirl’s that get in the job as the grain is being filled with shellac all disappear when the job gets an oil and turps cut back with 280 before the next body , the lint was only a problem when I was finishing off with oil, getting the final shine, the longer I spend doing that finishing the more I get lint or dust .

Thanks for the latest comments Rob.

Okay so even though you body up without oil, each bodying session is followed by a cut back using 280 grit paper and lubricated with a mixture of turps and oil. I assume you then clear the turps/oil before the next bodying session?

I've been doing alot of reading on FP with and without oil. It seems the most common "non-oil" method entails no oil used during bodying sessions but oil used during glaze sessions.

[auscab]

With that table , the first body started with 2 to 3 brush coats of shellac then a body session with the rubber within five minutes of the brush coats, it was then left for a few weeks.
Then cut back with water /detergent 280 on a air powered random orbital.

Next body is preceded with a wipe over with a rag soaked in metho
On one of those leaves 1.2 x 600 .
The way I body, or fill the grain with shellac starts the same with oil or not, get the rubber and drown it in the polishing tub, pick it up and squeeze most of the shellac out, and start off with straight long licks of shellac along the grain, as long as I’m getting an even trail with no over flow that’s fine , quite a bit comes out and I’m going fast ,one pass per second down the length, I may have to go across that 600 mm top three or four or ten times before I can test to see if I can start circles and eights ,when the flow coming out of the rubber has slowed so I can now do a circle without getting a rooster tail type over flow ,I go into circles and eights till the rubber starts to get dry and I finish off straight, ready for another drowning of the rubber and start the same thing over.
To me it’s all about building it up and spreading it sideways. I might spend thirty minutes doing that before I do a bit of extra straightening and it’s done, one body session.

If I were going to use oil in that session I would probably be giving it a flick by dipping my finger in the jar at about the fifteen minute point, and flicking fine droplets across the table leaf, I would not be drowning the rubber again but using what was left just doing circles and eights and straightening off, the oil would allow the rubber to glide and still have an influence on spreading the shellac already on the job, sideways.

With both methods with the rubber full shellac the pressure is not needed for laying it on straight.
when I go into circles and eights I would be giving about 3 to 5 kg pressure.

After that second body it was left for a few more weeks, then it was cut back with a worn 280 with oil and turps,on a flat rubber block , then the same rubber block 600 grit oil and turps , wiped dry ,then a fine steel wool with water and detergent.

The three new leaves needed one more body session ,the old growth timber was fine, the grain full after two sessions.

From memory
When I did my guitar I had the grain filled in three sessions like this using oil, each session took about 45 minutes including the cut back

[Kim]

Very kind of you to share some expertise from a professionals perspective Rob.

Thanks mate

Kim

[kiwigeo]

Thanks alot for that last post Rob,

In the middle of entertaining my wife and two Japanese high school friends right now but when I get a chance Ill have a god read of your post and digest same.

Cheers Martin

[Kim]

but when I get a chance Ill have a god read of your post and digest same.

Cheers Martin

Sounds like you'll be answering to a higher order from now on Rob

[kiwigeo]

but when I get a chance Ill have a god read of your post and digest same.

Cheers Martin

Sounds like you'll be answering to a higher order from now on Rob

Too many James Squires.....

[auscab]

Thanks Martin and Kim.

cheers

[kiwigeo]

These high school friends of my wife are a couple of classics.....one of them has a pink Pentax SLR and I reckon shes shot off 500 photos since she arrived. After attempting to photograph EVERY bird that landed in the back yard at dusk for a feed she then proceeded to photograph dinner before sitting down to eat it.

Both these girls and my wife are from Northern Japan which means only one thing....they can drink like fish and party till next year. Im going to be a wreck by the time these girls leave.

[auscab]

These high school friends of my wife are a couple of classics.....one of them has a pink Pentax SLR and I reckon shes shot off 500 photos since she arrived. After attempting to photograph EVERY bird that landed in the back yard at dusk for a feed she then proceeded to photograph dinner before sitting down to eat it.

Both these girls and my wife are from Northern Japan which means only one thing....they can drink like fish and party till next year. Im going to be a wreck by the time these girls leave.

That bit about photographing the dinner cracks me up

Three Japanese girls catching up and having a drink: Are you good enough at the language that you can keep up with them?

[kiwigeo]

That bit about photographing the dinner cracks me up

Three Japanese girls catching up and having a drink: Are you good enough at the language that you can keep up with them?

Yeah the girl with the pink Pentax is a classic. We had dinner at the local pub last night and sure enough she took a few hundred pics of the meal before we started eating. People at the bar were giving us funny looks but I was too busy cracking myself to be worried.

My Japanese isnt the best...forgot most of what I learned while living in Japan. The girls know a fair bit of english so communication hasnt been a problem.

[auscab]

With the guitar all body sessions were done over two days. The table I was happy to let it all sink and settle between body sessions. If I do use oil in the body up session, when I want to end that session I take the oil off straight away, I have also done it later in the day, and even the next day This is done by using more metho on the rubber ,but if it is done later, a wipe with a clean dry rag helps the more you go to pure metho on the rubber the higher the shine should be when all the oil is gone. I’ve never understood what I’m supposed to be looking at when experienced polishers have stood in front of me claiming there is still oil on the job and that it can be seen by breathing on it and watching the way the moisture leaves the surface, the penny has never dropped with me on that one, I check by giving a light wipe with a finger, and that shows it up if there is any left, the other thing is the rubber starts to grab a little more, and the polish has less stripes, the less oil, the less the gliding across the polish feel feedback you get.

[auscab]

This is getting a bit long and boring isn’t it? I think its easier doing a polish job compared to explaining it in writing! Now that I’ve tried both.
Ill try and speed it up to finish this off.

While I did the body sessions I did a bit of filling with pumice on two of the leaves, I did it the way I was shown by the Old boys years back, which is a sprinkle while rubbing, Have done it this way plenty of times, But on this job I gave up on it, felt I already had to much polish down.

With all the bodying up done , the whole thing cut back nicely , I finished it of using three tubs with ever thinner mixes of shellac, An older bodying rubber [ better than a new one for this part ] and linseed oil.
This bit is probably the most important part, the three thinner mixes of shellac.
And I have not yet mastered the pound cut method of description. [ I actually don’t like it ] good enough to be able to describe what I would like to say. Pictures with clear glass jars is what I will do if any one wants to see it? Ask and I’ll do it asap . it starts at very thin and goes to extremly thin.


First a few passes straight with the first mix with every drop squeezed out,
Then dip the rubber in the second mix and rinse out the first ,squeeze every drop out , even wrap it in a clean rag and squeeze, even though this is done you can still rub it across the back of your hand and see and feel shellac coming out.
With this mix a few more straight passes with a flick of oil across the job, keep going straight till the oil is right across the job, then move in to doing circles, as soon a I do the first circles I look in to the polish for the straight lines of the last cut back which is in there with the straight lines of the last straight passes,

I do circles and long eights across the grain and watch till the straight lines disappear,
I give the rubber a dip in the thinnest mix which is 95% metho, do the squeeze in a rag.
Then I move to long eights with the grain. After any dip I start straight then move back to circles or eights
Then random long circles then straight
I have a bottle with straight metho and a small hole in tne top, I feed a few drops at a time to the rubber , and straighten it all off till the oil is gone.
This is a balancing act about filling the cut back marks while polishing across the grain, and straightening off while getting the oil to go at the same time
To much circles and not enough straights when the oil is gone and your left with circles in the job,
To many straight passes to get the oil off and it starts to look like the grooves in a record,

Take a look over it the next day or week , if it sinks give it another go , try a lighter and quicker second go.

[auscab]

Some pictres

[P Bill]

Good job Rob. Good explanation, tech writing is a chore. How long has the pedestal been colecting polish?

[auscab]

Thanks Bill, feedback makes it worthwhile.

The pedestal belongs to my Brother , it gets a fair bit of interest from people as they walk past it, he probably started it 15 years back, and it’s just the spillage from fast work, I asked him the other day if any of it was intentional ,” No “was his answer. One guy walked up to it once and snapped off the curtain of shellac, Brother was furious at him and glued it back on with super glue.

The two jars are what gets left on coffee jars from the linseed oil and turps mix.

And the three tubs of polish are all the same thing , the bottom cut off a 2 liter orange juice bottle . the one on the left the oldest and the two on the right new

[auscab]

I labeled these pictures [not very well ] A to E in the order the work proceeded, the way the light reflects off the polished surface shows it off well , the more the grain fills and surface becomes more reflective the better you can see the 40 watt fluro globes that are reflecting off the ceiling .
The wobbly effect in E is the flatness of the timber ,this table was all over the place and we had to copy that into the three new leaves, one of the nice things about hand planned and scraped furniture.

A is the first body session
B is after the first cut back and second body
C was a thin body session without oil ? I think
D was same as ABC plus one finish session with oil
E Was same as ABCD with either one oil finish job or two

Some parts of this job came up good with one oil finish some needed two , two of the leaves I cut back so hard that I showed up witness marks of previous layers, these two needed two oil finish jobs

[kiwigeo]

OK....what part in the whole process does Tweety Bird play??? I suspect this is the key to FP the Auscab way.....

[auscab]

Tweety was just a way of seeing the reflection that I was trying out.
the lights were better.